The Rosie and Roula Show

155: Public Toilets, Safety, and Why Roula Wants Women Only Toilet Back

• Roula Abou Haidar and Rosie Burrows

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Roula and Rosie dive into a surprisingly heated topic: public toilets. 

Should we keep them gender-neutral, or do women deserve dedicated safe spaces? 

From hygiene concerns to cultural and religious privacy needs, they explore why this debate is about more than bathrooms—it’s about safety, dignity, and inclusion. 

In this episode: 

🚻 Roula’s plea: “I want my women’s toilet back” 

🧼 Cleanliness, privacy, and the reality of shared bathrooms 

👩🏽‍🤝‍👩🏾 Gender-neutral vs. women-only vs. three-toilet solution 

🌍 Cultural, religious, and safety perspectives on bathroom spaces 

💬 Where do we draw the line between inclusivity and exclusion? 


public toilets debate, gender-neutral bathrooms, women’s safety toilets, inclusive spaces, toilet privacy, bathroom gender debate, women-only bathrooms, clean public toilets, Muslim women privacy, Rosie and Roula podcast 

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Roula (00:00)
Rosie, are you ready for another toilet episode?

Rosie (00:02)
Mm-hmm.

⁓ my gosh. Okay. Let me swallow what I'm eating first. And then I think we can begin. Cause I don't want food in my mouth.

Roula (00:12)
Okay, I'm gonna have a

sip of water.

Rosie (00:15)
I'm gonna have some water too. ⁓ boy. Okay. Let's do this.

Roula (00:34)
Rosie, Rosie. So we're going to talk about toilet and I am going to say statement and I hope you guess why I'm saying this. I claim. The woman toilet back.

Rosie (00:42)
God.

Roula (00:53)
Does it say anything to you?

Rosie (00:55)
Are we talking about public toilets? Mmm. Same old.

Roula (00:57)
Yes, public toilet.

All right.

First, I want to say is that I support all genders. I feel like you live your life the way you want to live and fuck society as long as you're not hurting anyone, et cetera, et cetera. You know, my list of decent rules. There is something is that in our quest to equality, acceptance and diversity,

We left women with dirty public toilets all the time because we have to share them. Not women, or people who identify

women,

Rosie (01:44)
Yeah,

Roula (01:45)
because, people identifying as women, they sit and pee and many persons

Rosie (01:52)
Well, that's

not true, but yeah, okay. You said women who identify, people who identify as women sit and pee. That's not true for everybody.

Roula (01:55)
Women, don't sit up. I mean, I,

yeah not not true

because

Rosie (02:06)
Well, some people who identify as a woman stand and pee. They might not have a vagina.

Roula (02:12)
Okay, okay, I'm gonna get to this. Yes, yes, that's a very good one. And when public toilet is genderless for anyone, it's so difficult because until men or people with penis sit and pee, every toilet is splashed with pee everywhere. The floor, the walls, everywhere.

Rosie (02:14)
I'm just being devil's advocate here. Yeah. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Roula (02:41)
And I'm not saying this to be mean to people with penis. I'm just saying this because it's a reality.

Rosie (02:49)
Let's pause. Tell me the state of affairs with public toilets in the Netherlands. are they all just all genders use every public toilet or what what's it look like?

Roula (02:57)
Okay.

It's becoming more and more, yes, restaurants. And we were at the zoo. Our zoo in Amsterdam is built in the 1800s. It's a historical place. When you go there, you just lose yourself in this beautiful history. Very, very nice place. And their toilets, like they've never been cleaned for weeks. They used to have women's toilets.

Rosie (03:04)
Okay.

Roula (03:31)
and man toilets

And then women toilets were okay because there are less splashes of pee everywhere. And now they only have genderless toilets.

Rosie (03:48)
Mm-hmm.

Roula (03:50)
And I felt incredibly upset because as a woman, as a person identifying as a woman, I want my clean toilet. I want to fix my makeup. If I'm wearing a headscarf because I'm Muslim, I want to be able to fix it without having a man coming out of the other toilet. If I want to fix my dress and what I don't know under it, I want my privacy because we don't do this in the presence of men.

And if we are sharing a toilet, my freedom is taken away from me to have this moment with myself at the toilet.

Rosie (04:25)
Ooh, this is a controversial topic.

Oh, this, wow. Wow. I...

I'm having trouble knowing what to say.

Roula (04:38)
I wouldn't adjust my bra in front of a man

in the public. I wouldn't adjust my bra in front of man in public. So why would I do this at a toilet? I go to the toilet.

Rosie (04:47)
Why would you do it in front

of a woman?

Roula (04:50)
Because we all wear bra and we know how it feels and we need to fix it. I think so.

Rosie (04:53)
Wow, do we though? Yeah.

I don't know. I don't know if we're on the same page here. Like.

Roula (04:58)
woman will not will not look

maybe because you're gay

Rosie (05:05)
for god's sake, here we go. Do I stand and pee? No I do not. I think...

Roula (05:09)
No, no, I don't say

this. We are as women don't feel safe around men with our body to show or reveal whatever our body parts.

Rosie (05:17)
Yeah, I think, I think, yeah,

I do get feelings of, ⁓ actually, have I ever been in a bathroom where men are in there too? I don't think so. Like here, there are, ⁓ there are gender neutral toilets in some places, but it's not a toilet block where you're, you're at the sinks and there's men and women and other genders there. It's.

it's an individual cubicle outside, like you're the only one in there with the sink and the toilet. That's it.

Roula (05:56)
That's that's fine. I can live with this, even if it's dirty.

Rosie (05:58)
That's okay. Well, that's,

that's, think the only, I'm trying to think if I've ever been in a different scenario, I haven't, but I have accidentally walked into the men's toilet before. And yeah, the sense of fear, shit, there's a man in here. Or I think I mentioned on the episode, on an episode recently, I was in a public toilet and a woman saw me in the public toilet and she just stopped and went,

I have short hair and then she realized, she's a woman and it was okay. But it went, wow. I was responsible for making someone feel unsafe. So I think for whatever reason, wherever that comes from, yeah, I think I would feel safer with all women. Do I think...

That's based on fact. I would challenge that. think we've kind of been conditioned to feel that way. Well, why is it less safe with a man around?

Roula (06:53)
What do you mean?

Well, we don't get raped, harassed and touched and unwanted by women. Not as much as men.

Rosie (07:04)
So women don't do that?

Hmm.

Roula (07:11)
Women do that. Do women do that? Well, even I've been partying in gay bars, lesbian bars all my life in the Netherlands, and I haven't seen any inappropriate behavior from women unless it's mutual. But when I go to a bar with men, men can be all over the place, unwantedly. So yes, there is a difference, ⁓

Rosie (07:21)
Mm.

Hmm.

Roula (07:40)
you know and maybe to keep it light also the best conversations i have are with women at the toilet

Rosie (07:45)
We don't have to though.

I don't want to talk to you. I don't want to talk to a stranger in the toilet. Yeah. I'm in and out. Yeah.

Roula (07:51)
in front of the mirror, know, sharing

lipstick or talking, even we talk even about the bra or whatever pants or this, this very superficial conversations.

Rosie (08:02)
don't relate to this. I don't

relate to this at all. I hate looking in the mirror. I'm in there, I wash my hands and I am out.

Roula (08:10)
Okay, cool. We can have genderless toilets, but I want this one toilet for women. And really, what, like, I was thinking about Muslim women who need this privacy. Sometimes they need to take off the scarf and put it properly. So why don't you have respect for that too?

Rosie (08:24)
Yeah, well they wouldn't.

Hmm. I, yeah. I think what, what my issue first, I think what made me get my back up initially, even though this wasn't the only point you mentioned was that when men are using the toilets as well, it's messy. And I thought, well, that's not fair to say that. I kind of do believe that stereotype, but also there are plenty of men who are, ⁓ your face, you're like, no, they're all feral.

Roula (08:35)
I'm like my emotions.

Rosie (09:01)
So does your husband just wheel over the toilet seat and the floor? Does your son do that?

Roula (09:04)
No, but

that's the thing. That's the thing. They're not the majority.

Men who sit and pee are not the majority.

Rosie (09:10)
I don't know. There are female public

toilets that are revolting. Everywhere. Everywhere. But I hear you too.

Roula (09:16)
True, true. But then I can curse the woman and I can get

angry at the woman without being biased or judged because if a woman leaves the... Yeah, there are women who leave the toilet very dirty after them. You know, I would go and tell the woman, please, can you come back and do something about this, for example? I would never do this with a man.

Rosie (09:24)
But you...

Hmm. Okay. So help me, help me understand better. Okay.

Is what is the main reason behind you wanting the female toilet back? it, and I could be off here, so this is why I want to clarify. Is it more to do with safety or is it more to do with cleanliness? Cause they're two both equally.

Roula (09:58)
both both

safety cleanliness yeah equally equally and you know what we women fought for so many things and i think i'm not sure they didn't google it we fought for for having our public toilet somewhere in a restaurant to be welcome in a cinema wherever we are i don't know please some more fact check it i don't want anyone to take away the woman

Rosie (10:05)
Okay.

Did we? I got no idea. Someone fact-checked that. Is Rula talking shit?

Roula (10:27)
toilet i wanted back do man toilet woman okay there are probably men who also don't want to share toilet with women now i'm talking from my point of view but probably there are also men who don't want to share women toilet so in this real in this place where we want everyone to feel included we freaking excluded women

Rosie (10:30)
Yeah.

Mm-mm.

I don't know the answer, hey. should we have...

Go back to just male and, yeah, that's I was just going to ask. Do we go back to male and female or do we have male, gender neutral and female, and then you choose which one you go in.

Roula (10:58)
We should have three toilets.

Yes, male, gender neutral and

female. We all should have the choice to choose the toilet we want to use. You know, when we were at the zoo is that every time we use we spend there the whole day. It was so much activity and very long day. Every time I walk to the toilet, like men are passing by, it's that I don't want that. I want to be feeling safe in a toilet that's only for women.

Rosie (11:26)
Mm, mm. You wanna feel safe.

And you're entitled to that, I think. Like, why not? And I, on the safety side of things, I don't know where the feelings come from for me, but yeah, it would feel less safe if I was in a public bathroom where there's men in there as well. And I don't know if that's because it's just something I'm not used to, or if it's because, ⁓

You know, generally the stories we hear are about men inflicting harm on women and not the other way around. Like I think it's so multifaceted, but yeah, I, I think that's a whole other topic.

Roula (12:16)
Yeah. Look, with the time,

yes, by the time we publish this, it's going to be a week's past. But today we're recording it. And we already today it's been a week that we women here in the Netherlands are devastated by all the killing, the rape and the harassment that women are facing in the evening while cycling back to their houses. It's all over the news. We are now.

Rosie (12:25)
Yeah.

my god. ⁓ my god.

Roula (12:45)
Women are going out on the streets protesting, how can I say, peacefully, proving that we have to be safe on the streets. And this week, there is so much going on in terms of women killing and abuse. And this, I think this also brought me more into this topic to ask for a place.

Rosie (13:02)
Wow.

Roula (13:13)
Just keep one toilet for women, please. And I think I'm going to send an email to the zoo with this opinion. I don't want, this is my right. Don't take it away from me because we want to have diverse, inclusive society. We can be diverse, we can be inclusive without starting to exclude the other ones.

Rosie (13:20)
Mmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Totally.

Right. And I think part of the difficulty here is it's, or at least in Australia, it's still a relatively recent issue that we're trying to navigate in making sure that everybody feels safe in public toilets. And the whole concept of having well gender neutral toilets is still up for contention. Right. And I think there are a lot of people who don't feel comfortable with it.

I think there are a lot of people who do, but it's like, well, how do we find the balance? And I'd like your suggestion of, well, why don't we have the three bathrooms? Men, women, gender neutral. And I'm sure there's arguments against that.

Roula (14:14)
Also speaking for,

well, argument would be space and money. What else could it be?

Rosie (14:20)
Yeah, space and money, I think. And then other people who go, well, you know, there's no such thing as, you know, there's only men and women. There's no other gender. There'd be people doing that. Like, why do you need to have another one?

Roula (14:30)
But these people

are doing this now because there's only one toilet and it's gender neutral.

Rosie (14:36)
Hmm.

Roula (14:38)
and there is another gender neutral toilet in the zoo, so there are two gender neutrals. The first one I entered it had urinoir for men.

Rosie (14:41)
Hmm?

Yeah.

It had urinals in there. Yeah.

Roula (14:52)
Yes,

and the other one, it had only urinoir, so if they want to use a regular toilet they have to use the other gender neutral toilet.

Rosie (15:00)
was that gender

neutral if you went in there? You can't use a urinal.

Roula (15:04)
But you just said someone can be identified as a woman but they have a penis.

Rosie (15:08)
True, but that's not everybody, is it? So how is that gender neutral? My god!

Roula (15:13)
Yeah, so men

still have this urine word to prove again that they stand and pee.

my goodness, I'm so all over the place on this topic.

Rosie (15:24)
Yeah, I think we both need to marinate on this

because it is important. when I mentioned before over here, often the gender, the only examples I've seen, I'm sure that in more progressive cities in Australia, there's other examples like what you're talking about. But the only gender neutral tool that I've come across is when it's an individual thing. The sink and the toilet are there and that's it. You're not in a space with men. Like that doesn't bother me so much. It's just me. I'm not, yeah.

Roula (15:51)
No!

Rosie (15:53)
So maybe that's the, is that the answer? Yeah, it is private. Right. Yeah. So maybe that is an option as well. ⁓ Wow.

Roula (15:54)
It's private, it's private. Even if it's dirty, it's still private, you know?

Yeah.

This is one of the topics that you never thought we're going to talk about.

Rosie (16:11)
Well, I don't know why I didn't think of it before now because it's definitely a Rosie and Rula type topic. And like both of us kind of had strong emotions about this, but it's not like.

Roula (16:17)
Yes.

So our toilet

story is back with vengeance.

Rosie (16:26)
Yeah,

Tollid's story is back!

Roula (16:30)
want my woman toilet back.

Rosie (16:33)
And I hear you, right? I hear you, I really do. And it's not necessarily something I can relate to because I haven't been in that situation. But I can imagine feeling unsafe with that. The safety for me would be the biggest thing. And the uncleanliness, I think is more a stereotype, but it is something that pops to mind. Oh, you know, I don't want to share one with men.

that you do find pee on the toilet and everything, but also probably a stereotype because women do it too.

Roula (17:01)
⁓

Yeah, well I have like my son is my fact check. Whenever we're using public toilet, he refuses to use the ladies because I ask him to use it because I'm there and it's clean. ⁓ Again, me biased. He said, no, no, no, I'm going to go to the men's toilet. And nine times out of 10, he comes out telling me, it's so gross.

Rosie (17:10)
yes.

Yes. Yeah.

wow, yeah wow.

Roula (17:33)
I didn't even touch the door or the wall or anything.

Rosie (17:36)
⁓ yeah.

Yuck.

Roula (17:42)
Yes,

a toilet conversation took us 18 minutes and 45 seconds.

Rosie (17:47)
Wow. And it wasn't like a silly toilet conversation. think a lot of our conversations about toilets are quite humorous, but this one is, I don't know. I, didn't feel appropriate to work humor and yeah, it's just a very heated topic. And I think it needs to be spoken about more with respect and kindness. That's the key.

Roula (17:58)
Rebellious.

Yes, three

toilets. Three.

Rosie (18:12)
Three toilets

or just individual ones that are private? There are two possible solutions. Except you wouldn't have your conversations sharing lipstick and whatever the fuck else you like to do. Ugh.

Roula (18:17)
Possible, also possible.

No, no, yeah,

that's me, that's me. Yeah. All right. Shall we wrap it up? Because this is taking very long.

Rosie (18:31)
Yeah.

Let us know your thoughts, everyone. ⁓ Kindness always. Not fake kindness, just empathy, right? I like to think that I listened to your point of view.

Roula (18:40)
Yes.

From

a toilet topic to conclusion, kindness, kindness and empathy.

Rosie (18:52)
⁓ I think it fits. I think that is at the core of it really. Everyone deserves to feel safe and...

Roula (18:54)
Yep.

Rosie (19:01)
I, yeah. What else is there to say? Yep.

Roula (19:03)
Yes. All right.

We'll see you next time. Bye.